ESG Podcast: Making sustainability a strategic advantage – how can we measure impact

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Hello, and welcome to episode 2 of our ESG podcast hosted by Weightmans on ESG and sustainability. In this episode we’ll be looking at sustainability in more detail and delving into how organisations can use it to their strategic advantage. Common questions that we receive from our clients include: How do you measure impact? What does a sustainable strategy look like? How can you best present yourself in the market? These are just some of the issues that we'll be exploring in today’s podcast as we consider the role of legal professionals in the changing landscape, as well as how we can collaborate with other sectors to best support our clients and see the possibility for our business, our planet and our people.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: My name is Hanna. I'm a trainee solicitor at Weightmans and I'm currently part of our fast-growing ESG team, which is made up of award-winning environmental and regulatory lawyers, as well as expert litigators and corporate lawyers. We're a cross functional team and work with all sectors of the organisation as well as our strategic partners to deliver a one stop shop for all things ESG.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: I'm joined today by our Head of ESG, Abhay Srivastava, and welcoming back two of our amazing partner organisations, Aimée and Christina of Stories Evolved, and Amy King of Paragon Impact. So, for those who haven’t tuned in to our podcast before – I’d like to invite our guests to briefly introduce themselves and the organisations they work for, perhaps starting with you Aimée and Christina.

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: Fantastic. Thank you, Hanna. It's lovely to be here. And I was just going to say maybe, for ease of reference, I'm Aimée G for these podcasts because it gets a bit confusing. But I'm a corporate lawyer turned sustainability advisor, passionate about helping businesses do well by doing good. Through Stories Evolved, my work at the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership and our collaboration with Weightmans and Paragon Impact, we're focused on helping leaders navigate the complexities of ESG and sustainability so that they can take action that's both credible and commercially smart. Christina, why don't I hand over to you?

Christina Bartholomew [Stories Evolved]: Yes. So, Christina Bartholomew. I'm a lawyer from the United States, but I haven't practiced in a while. My focus moved to pedagogy and then when I met Aimée and we developed our business Stories Evolved, we became very focused on how to help lawyers and how to help lawyers help their businesses, their business clients and also to work directly with those clients to help develop meaningful, sustainable strategies. Delighted to be here today.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Great. Thank you so much. Welcome back. And Amy King, you're the Chief Sustainability Officer at Paragon. And perhaps you could say a few words about yourself and the organisation you work for.

Amy King [Paragon Impact]: Well, thank you, and thank you so much for having us here today. I'm Amy King or Amy K, and, my background is in mostly environmental science. I've got a Bachelor's degree in Environmental Chemistry and a Master's degree in Climate Change and Risk Management. So, my interest has always been in how can businesses help mitigate their environmental impact, which led me to working here at Paragon. We are a technology business primarily, and we're building systems and solutions that we are putting in the hands of advisers and institutions to help measure the sustainable impact of businesses and financial assets.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Great. Thank you. Welcome, Amy. And finally, Abhay from Weightmans, you used to be an engineer and now you’re an ESG change maker, helping Weightmans with our sustainability strategy and also supporting our clients. Welcome. Perhaps you'd like to say a few words as well.

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: Thank you, Hanna. Thank you for organising. So, I've been with the firm for now three years as head of ESG. And as, Hanna, you pointed out, I'm an electrical engineer with postgraduate degree in sustainability. At Weightmans, my responsibilities include focusing on the firm's own ESG program, consisting of climate action, diversity, equity, inclusion, CSR, pro bono, and corporate governance. In addition to that, I'm also part of the core ESG group supporting our clients with their ESG needs. Thank you.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Perfect. Thank you. So, let's jump straight into the topic of this podcast episode. What is sustainability impact, and how do we measure it? Amy K at Paragon, perhaps I can turn to you first.

Amy King [Paragon Impact]: So, I'm going to take quite a kind of technical view. We see impact as being the real-world translation of how both positive and negative sustainable outcomes occur. It is hard to measure impact because we live in complex systems. These include our social and environmental systems. And these systems have unique behaviours that can be hard to predict how outcomes will emerge in them because sometimes small inputs can have unexpected and excessively large impacts in very diverse ways. Paragon Impact has its own proprietary methodology for measuring such impact, taking into consideration the complexity of the systems we live in, but also the unique geographical context where these impacts are likely to be taking place.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Thank you. It's always helpful to have a technical background as well. Thank you, Amy. Christina, perhaps I can turn to you.

Christina Bartholomew [Stories Evolved]: I'd like to build on Amy's point. Let's first take a step back and quickly remind ourselves why measuring sustainable impact matters, and that's something we've touched on previously. So, imagine your business as a bakery. To run it well, you rely on various key resources, not only your money and equipment, but also the knowledge and creativity of your bakers, the health and motivation of your team, the relationships with your suppliers and customers, your customers' ability to access and afford products and services that you need for baking, like sugar and energy, and natural resources, like water and wheat. Every day your bakery operates, it impacts each of these resources, sometimes positively, like creating jobs or supporting local suppliers, and sometimes negatively, like using emissions-heavy energy or generating waste.

Christina Bartholomew [Stories Evolved]: Measuring impact means clearly understanding exactly how your business activities strengthen or weaken these resources over time, which directly influences your ability to remain profitable, competitive, and resilient. And this is where the strategic advantage of sustainability comes in. In practical terms, measuring impact helps answer three vital questions. The first is compliance and risk. Is your business legally compliant and avoiding unnecessary risks? Second, integrity and trust. Are you genuinely doing what you claim? And if you are, then you're avoiding accusations of greenwashing or reputational damage. And the third is competitiveness and resilience. Are you strategically investing in resources that make your business stronger, more competitive, and future proof, and therefore, more attractive to future funders. 

Christina Bartholomew [Stories Evolved]: Now Amy mentioned the complexity involved here, and she's absolutely right. Measuring impact isn't always straightforward. This is a complex area, and nuance is key. It's easy to count how many employees you trained or how much money you spent on training programmes, but sometimes those things can be quite superficial. Measuring how this training changes their lives, your productivity, or environmental impact, it's much trickier. And this complexity doesn't mean impact measurement should be avoided. In fact, it's the opposite. But it does mean that it should be done really mindfully. Having regard to what impact matters most to the business and then continuously improving how data is collected and analysed to tie in with this. It's important not to be paralysed by the complexity. Instead, businesses should really embrace impact measurement as an evolving journey, building depth and reliability over time.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Thank you, Christina. That's a really helpful insight. I'd love to bring Abhay into the conversation now. Abhay, can you share your experience measuring sustainability impact from inside an organisation? So, what are some of the challenges that you found? What can you share that works, and perhaps what doesn't?

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: Thanks, Hanna. Some very good explanation by Christina. And if I were to describe the process of impact measurement, I'll probably start with the governance piece. This is very important as working on this aspect will guide the quality and coverage of impact measurements. And the impact measurement or the governance related to impact measurement usually start with the team. Like, who is in charge of managing the sustainability impact measurement, and do they have a clarity on their role or have a good reach within the organisation? And if they have the right kind of reach across the upstream and downstream of the organisation, then do they have right competencies to set expectations with the stakeholders to basically understand, manage, and report impact arising from their activities within the value chain?

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: Just to give you an example, if you're gathering impact data from small suppliers, then the process should start with expectation setting, a bit of education on what is to be done, and often discussion with the suppliers on adequacy of resources at their end to ensure that impact assessments are done as agreed and as per discussed methodologies. And the same issues are echoed while dealing with large suppliers such as global manufacturers, service providers, and landlords in case of multi-tenanted commercial buildings, which is usually the case with professional services companies, wherein the most common thread being that the sustainability teams are still solving how, who, and what of the impact measurement.

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: One of the other governance areas is also to ensure mechanisms and tools to measure and report sustainability impacts with the stakeholders, and this is besides developing and improving competencies. So in a nutshell, this is a big collaboration exercise. Obviously, it depends on the nature of industry and size of organisation. But, without these aspects, impact measurements could be marred with data gaps and inconsistencies in methodologies for measuring any impact data. 

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: That’s a really helpful overview. And given this complexity, it seems like, I wonder if you can share some more insight into what information we should actually be collecting and measuring. Are there any useful frameworks, that anyone can share that perhaps organisations can align themselves to?

Amy King [Paragon Impact]: I'm going to jump in here because these are really the million- dollar questions that we hear at Paragon from most businesses. And we know that, internationally, we have a number of ESG frameworks available to us that help businesses identify what they should measure. But what we find at Paragon is that those ESG frameworks lack the ability to embrace that complex system reality that we live in. And, also, they sometimes fail at providing the context to situations that most businesses operate in. So, therefore, we don't think that ESG frameworks alone are great at measuring real world impact. This is largely because impact requires a couple of additional questions on top of those ESG and sustainability performance data points. Those questions look like, well, how bad or how good is my performance? So what that I am performing this way? Am I doing better than my peers? Am I doing worse than my peers? It really wants to extend that performance question and learn more.

Amy King [Paragon Impact]: What we do at Paragon to help us start understanding what data a business should collect is to start by looking at the most material issues. And we use a framework called double materiality, which helps us understand which issues a business is most likely to be impacted and exposed to, and this then helps us prioritise what to measure. There's little point putting vast amounts of effort into capturing some sustainability metrics, for example, say, amount of water consumed, if it turns out that this is only a very peripheral impact or risk to a business.

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: I'll jump in there. I just wanted to quickly pick up on a base point around governance because I think that's such a good one. And frameworks used well can be used as one of those governance tools that can really help shape the information that you're using to check that you're implementing the correct decisions and that you're applying the correct processes. So, that's actually a great link into this discussion. 

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: But building on your point, Amy, I wanted to highlight a few considerations that often get overlooked, I think, when businesses decide what to measure and which frameworks to follow. The first is that any metrics and frameworks you choose should align directly with your legal obligations as well as the commitments your business has made through its public policies and statements. In practice, this addresses the question of compliance and risk that Christina mentioned earlier. Are you covering the essentials to remain legally compliant and avoid penalties or liabilities arising from regulations, for example.

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: But importantly, it also supports integrity and trust by helping you stick to your word and steer clear of greenwashing accusations. And importantly, don't forget that today, key partners and customers increasingly require sustainability information for you to stay part of their value chain or for them to consider investing in your business. Second, the sheer variety of ESG and double materiality frameworks available can be overwhelming. Some are sector specific, others are issue specific, and many are touted as best practice. Because of this complexity, a strategic pause is often needed to select frameworks that truly align with the scale of your business, with your operations, and again, the specific impacts that you create. This links back to competitiveness and resilience, which is another point that Christina mentioned earlier. Focusing on metrics that genuinely matter to your profitability, your brand reputation, and to your long-term viability. This ensures you're investing in areas that strengthen your business rather than simply ticking boxes that are actually quite abstract and separate from the business. 

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: Amy mentioned the importance of materiality, and that's crucial. There's little benefit in measuring something like water usage if that's not a major risk or impact area for your operations. Instead, what you want to do is channel your resources into metrics and issues that directly influence your business operations and your goals. Again, touching on all three of those issues, staying compliant, maintaining trust, and building resilience. So, if we go back to that bakery example, for many bakeries resource consumption, electricity, water, and raw materials like palm oil and soya, for example, will be a substantial area of impact both environmentally and financially. From a social perspective, fair wages and working conditions are vital. And you might even consider the public health implications if your products contain high levels of sugar or calories. It's measuring and managing these impacts effectively that are going to give you a clear edge in the market while safeguarding your reputation and your legal standing.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Thank you, Aimée G. That that's a good point to consider that not all double materiality assessments are right for your business. There might be one that's better or worse. I'd like to bring you in, Abhay. Does this resonate with you in terms of deciding which assessment is best or have you found, particularly, any useful frameworks to kind of navigate this complexity?

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: Thanks, Hanna. I think materiality assessment is the starting point as explained by Amy K. And I totally agree with the consideration shared by Aimée G. There are some good easy to use frameworks available for organisations like the SASB or IFRS and, to an extent, ESRS standards that provide guidance on high level industry specific material issues, which they can use to report their impact. And then there are generic frameworks such as the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals that cover seventeen goals that may be applied to an organisation's impact. And in summary, these standards, with their own shortcomings, aim to holistically look at the material risk and opportunities for a business. 

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: While reframing ESG into business as usual is a maturity journey, and to exceed these known current frameworks in terms of impact measurement and feedback into a strategy, they need to do some work. But in my honest opinion, integrated ESG risk management based on understanding of an organisation's interactions with their wider stakeholders and their understanding of impact could create trust between the organisations and their stakeholders, which can ultimately set the organisation up for long-term value creation.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Thank you, Abhay, and to everyone for your insights. I think that was a really great introduction into just how complex it is to measure impact. And since there is so much to explore, I think we're going pause now and unpack this a bit more in part two of the episode. So, thank you for listening to the first half of this podcast, and please join us for the next part where we'll dive a bit deeper into these different frameworks and tools to help you make sustainability a strategic advantage.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Welcome back to part two of our ESG episode on making sustainability a strategic advantage, how can we measure impact? At the end of part one, Abhay introduced some frameworks, including the Sustainability Accounting Standards Board or SASB as it's also known, and the International Reporting Standards Foundation, as well as the UN SDGs or Sustainability Development Goals. Apologies for all the sustainability acronyms that seems to come with the territory. But diving a bit deeper then into these frameworks, can we perhaps first explore the difference between mandatory and voluntary monitoring and reporting? What would you say are some of the challenges when navigating the different tools?

Amy King [Paragon Impact]: This is such a good question. The challenge is that we have huge amounts of variation between jurisdictions on what is actually voluntary and what is mandatory to disclose. When it comes to, actually, impact measurement, there is very little mandatory disclosure out there. This is because most regulation is expecting firms to disclose the ESG data, which we spoke about in part one. And we know that this data alone doesn't fully explain the impact that a firm is having. 

Amy King [Paragon Impact]: But we know that the international policy challenge is that we're trying to find these interoperable frameworks that mean the sustainability performance of one business, or one asset, is equivalent and can be compared on equal grounds to another. I think this was the rationale for formation of the International Sustainability Standards Board, the ISSB, under the IFRS. But again, this is mostly focused on ESG data, which is helping investors understand the ESG risk that an asset may present them as part of their own investment decision making process. Again, this doesn't really take into consideration that outward impact that a firm is likely to be having on environmental or social systems. We know that there are some fantastic organisations like B Corp that do have an impact measurement component to them. If you're going to become a B Corp business, they expect you to be able to articulate your social and environmental impact, and they have a very rigorous application process where this impact measurement occurs. However, B Corp is not likely to be suitable for all businesses, so it doesn't tick that interoperable requirement that we'd look for in a standard that can measure impact globally.

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: Thanks, Amy. If I could jump in here, Hanna. I think that point about interoperable is such a good one, and especially relevant at the moment if we consider the uncertainty that we spoke about a few podcasts back, specifically in terms of some of the reporting legislation. We've recently seen some legislative proposals from Senate Republicans in the US, for example, against the EU's Corporate Sustainability Due Diligence Directive, citing competitive disadvantages. And we're also waiting for the final amendments that are going to come out of the EU. So, it's going be interesting to see what happens in that regard. But I suppose building on that and what you've already said, Amy, many businesses feel overwhelmed by reporting fatigue. The business of a business that, you know, many businesses feel, understandably, is doing the business and what many of these regulations and frameworks introduce is a large administrative burden, and of course as well the costs of reporting. And there's also a fear about losing competitive advantage because of the information that's disclosed and put into the public domain, especially if businesses are reporting on a voluntary basis and their competitors aren't yet investing in similar reporting. Again, there's also a worry about kind of accusations of greenwashing in in what the businesses disclose, especially if impact isn't being measured authentically or perhaps you're still seeking to understand what you need to measure, what's really material for your business, and how to measure that in a credible way.

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: So, kind of stepping back from that, I'm going summarise three clear reasons why we think impact measurement is valuable despite all of these legitimate concerns. And the first is opportunity and performance. As I mentioned earlier, measuring impact isn't about disclosure, or it's not just about disclosure. Importantly, it's about having the right decisions at your fingertips to make smarter, more strategic business decisions. And that's really building on the point that Abhay made in the first part of our discussion about governance. So, for example, by tracking your energy and water use, you can cut waste, reduce operating costs, and become more efficient. Or, if you're in construction, impact data could highlight opportunities, perhaps new ways to improve your materials for resilience against fire or extreme weather, giving you a unique competitive advantage. 

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: The second point is governance and risk management. Again, the governance point. Impact measurement equips your board and leadership teams with the insights necessary to identify and manage significant medium and long-term risks, and I would say even increasingly short-term risks. So, take the EU's Corporate Sustainability Due Diligence Directive, for example. Despite some pushback, which I referred to earlier, the directive clearly shows the direction in which global regulations are moving. Companies proactively measuring impact are better prepared to manage these evolving legal and operational risks, protecting their reputation, safeguarding their market position, and ensuring future profitability. 

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: And the final point I want to make is about the way the wind is blowing. Businesses are navigating a complex transition towards a new operating reality. And while the frameworks and regulations around impact and disclosure are still evolving, there is growing consensus that environmental and social factors pose tangible financial risks from direct regulatory fines to indirect costs like supply chain disruptions and broader economic volatility. The new IFRS sustainability disclosure standards such as IFRS S1 reflect the shifting landscape and excuse the acronyms again, we're going to have an index in the show notes. But they are requiring companies to disclose sustainability related risks and opportunities. So, while they currently focus more on ESG than on impact, the line between the two, I think, is going to become increasingly blurred as we see sustainability becoming integral to mainstream business strategy. So, in short, investing in voluntary impact measurement is not about compliance - or not just about compliance. It's about gaining crucial insights to help you position your business confidently for the changing business environment.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Thank you both. And I think that is a good summary of, again, the why of impact management and ESG measurement, as we've sort of expanded on in the first podcast. So, I wonder if you could share then any best practices or case studies to help demonstrate the importance of operationalising sustainability impacts that we've talked about. Abhay, perhaps I can come to you first.

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: Thanks, Hanna. I would like to share an example of solar cold storage companies that operate in Africa and Southeast Asia, something I was deeply involved with before joining Weightmans. Now these companies provide off grid systems that have inbuilt energy storage to provide fast cooling rates and shorter pre-cooling times, and they also address cooling redundancies, especially during power failures, all without, or in some cases with limited, grid supplies. It is interesting to note that their customers are usually smallholder farmers and many of whom earn about two dollars day. And these smallholder farmers are often impacted by significant food wastage in absence of reliable cold storage for their perishable agriculture produce. And there's a lot of data that highlights early cold change significantly reduces post-harvest losses by twenty-five to fifty percent depending on the agri-produce and geography. The business model of these companies addresses market and access to financing gaps in most of these markets. While many of them have partnered with fintechs, microfinance institutions to solve financing challenge for their agri-customers, some provided market access to smallholder farmers as well. And this not only reduced wastage of agri-produce, but also resulted in income improvements and, hence, higher standards of living for these smallholder farmers.

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: This model is a classic example of operationalising sustainability related impact for the industry. I mean, it's operating constraint of resources they have and why this is important. Because UK's food, feed and drink imports now stand at about sixty-one billion pounds for financial year 2023 as per the UK government's website. And according to the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the UN, which is, FAO, meeting growing demands will require an increase of 70% in full availability by 2050. And we all know that because of climate change, yields have been significantly reduced because of reduction in agriculture output. Regions like Sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia are expected to require an increase of about hundred plus percentage. So, such innovations of operationalising multi stakeholder impact are important for our food security. Thanks, Hanna. Back to you.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Thank you. Perhaps Amy at Paragon, you could share some case studies.

Amy King [Paragon Impact]: Yeah. I was going to jump in because I've got another good example from a South African game reserve that we worked with at Paragon. And this one really stood out for us because when we worked with them, we learned that from the very inception of this business, the reserve recognised the importance of deeply engaging with the surrounding community and demonstrating to that community tangible value that the lodge had for them. By proactively managing its impact and measuring the benefits that it delivered into the community, as well as tracking its own financial performance, because we always have to remember that these are for profit businesses, the reserve was able to navigate and avoid some serious challenges. One such example of this challenge came during a period of social unrest when some protests led to road blockades and prevented access to the reserve. What was noticed was that, while other lodges in the area faced complete shutdowns due to this protest, the reserve that we worked with actually saw a different outcome. The protesters allowed customers for that lodge through because they recognised that this wasn't just another business, but it was a committed partner that was actively supporting the local community. And why we like this case study is because we think it underscores the crucial lesson that businesses have to prioritise genuine measurable community impact because it builds goodwill, and this goodwill results in business resilience.

Christina Bartholomew [Stories Evolved]: That is such an interesting example. I loved that. And yours as well, Abhay. And I'd like to build on another one. This one in the FMCG space. So, a food retailer we supported committed to significantly reducing its climate impact through practical steps like installing energy efficient LED lighting and generating  renewable energy on-site for use at its stores and its distribution centres. But beyond those important energy initiatives, this business recognised a key area of impact closely tied to its core operations, and that was food waste. Managing food waste doesn't just help meet greenhouse gas reduction targets. It's also critical in a world grappling with inequality, poverty, and hunger. So, the company set out first to clearly understand the nature and scale of its food waste and, with our help, to identify potential innovative solutions that could tackle it effectively. And they're now actively implementing pilot initiatives to prevent food waste before it happens. They're leveraging technology and data analytics to better predict customer demand, to optimise stock management, and they formalised reliable donation processes for unsold but perfectly edible food to support local communities directly. And there's that trust that you were identifying, Amy K. In any case, any remaining food that can't be consumed safely is being repurposed within their supply chain for things like animal feed. And this proactive approach demonstrates a core lesson, I think, for any business that operationalising sustainable impact doesn't just fulfil commitments. It can reduce costs. It can strengthen reputations. It can build community trust and position the business to thrive long term. And in some cases, can lead to new revenue streams through great products.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Agreed. These are some excellent examples of how sustainable impact management can really build resilience for organisations and act almost as a future-proofing strategy as well as impacting positively the communities around them. Finally, then, I'd like to finish with some top tips from all of you. So, for organisations that are perhaps just starting out on their sustainability journey, or looking at what's next for how to measure impact, what would you say are some of the key issues that they should be aware of or any key takeaways that you'd like to finish on?

Amy King [Paragon Impact]: So, I'm going to jump in first. I think my message that I'd like to land is that ESG and impact are not the same. If you want to be an impact leader, then this will mean an extension of your business beyond ESG. But there are significant benefits to doing this. I think we've highlighted many and especially with the case studies that we just spoke through. Once you as a business have clarity on your impact, you will likely identify additional risks that you don't have on your business's risk register today. Additionally, once you start measuring your impact, you can start raising capital from investors who want to see an impact return as well as their financial return. And we're finding that stakeholder maturity on sustainability is rapidly progressing. Stakeholders are much more frequently asking about what a business's impact performance is. And unfortunately, many businesses today don't have the ability to express that with the confidence that they need to.

Aimée Girdwood [Stories Evolved]: Amy, I'm going jump in here. I mean, I think the three case studies that, have been spoken about by Amy K, Abhay, and Christina have just been the highlights of this discussion for me because it really shows the interlinkage between looking at and understanding impact and really what it means for the resilience of a business. So, for me, I think that's almost a key takeaway from this discussion is understanding impact and managing it responsibly equals business resilience. And so, to everyone listening, I would say firstly remember to focus on the impact that is material. And then secondly, in understanding what is material, remember to keep those lenses of what you are legally required to do and, importantly, what you are required to do to maintain your integrity and trust with your key stakeholders, and that's an issue that was highlighted in those various case studies that's absolutely vital. And, of course, how do those issues help you in your drive for business resilience and competitiveness? I'll hand over to you, Abhay.

Abhay Srivastava [Weightmans]: Thanks. I would say that if you are starting the sustainability journey or impact measurement based on any of the drivers mentioned by Amy K, Aimée G, and Christina, I would say start with small and focus on the basics, which is all about putting right people, imparting them with right knowledge, and providing them with right amount of support to execute their plans. And from my experience, I can say that this need not be a linear process, and it can be continuously improving iterations of the same process to measure impact, understanding your overall impact, and do good for the business, for the communities, and the planet. Thank you.

Hanna McRobbie [Weightmans]: Thank you. That again, that's a great note to end on. And thank you again everyone for your contributions and your time today. I think this has been another very insightful discussion. And thank you again to everyone listening. We hope you've enjoyed learning more about impact measurement, the complexities of it, but how it can be a strategic advantage for your organisation. So, get in touch to let us know your thoughts. Let us know if we can help and join us again for our next episode as we continue to talk about all things ESG.