Summary
In this festive episode of the podcast, Toby and Paul are joined by our Head of Fraud, Mike Brown, to discuss the spectre of fraud past, present, and future.
Transcript
Toby Morse - Hi, and welcome back to the Morse & Holmes podcast for Weightmans, the podcast where we talk all things claims and fraud. I'm Toby Morse and I'm the intelligence manager for Weightmans, and as always, I'm joined by my colleague, Paul Holmes, who's a senior intelligence handler in our intel team.
Paul Holmes - Hey, everybody. Thanks for the intro Toby. So listeners, we have a very special guest joining us today. It's the one and only, the man that everyone loves. It's Mr Mike Brown.
Mike Brown - Good morning. Hi everybody. Thanks for having me, boys.
Paul Holmes - You're more than welcome, boss. It's great to have you on. We've been wanting you on the list for quite a while now. So Mike joined us about eighteen months ago as the head of fraud. You will notice that Toby, and I will try to be on our best behavior on this podcast.
Toby Morse - We will, we will try our very best. Now listeners, with the festive time quickly approaching we decided to get in the Christmas spirit and put a festive spin on, this episode of the podcast.
Paul Holmes - It was good plan, I like it.
Toby Morse - Yeah. So we kicked a few ideas around didn't we, Paul? What we've come up with is is a little nod to a, Charles Dickens' masterpiece. And we're gonna talk about fraud past, present, and future.
Paul Holmes - Yeah, Toby. We're supposed to be on our best behavior and you've now just based this whole episode on a story about scrooge. And then on top of the asking how a boss then a fraud to come on. Obviously, We are not suggesting that you are scrooge, Mike, we promise.
Toby Morse - Absolutely not, Mike. Absolutely. There's no suggestion at all that you're a Scrooge sort of character at all. But before they've given your background, and your experience, we thought that you were the ideal perso, to talk to us about for all past present and and future. So with that in mind, Mike, I'm sure many of our listeners will know you, but for those who don't, just give us a bit of detail about yourself and your and your career to date.
Mike Brown - Yeah. Great. Thanks, Toby, and listen joking aside. There is an element of Scrooge here. Because for fraudsters, I am Scrooge. I don't give them anything.
Anyway, my background I started my career in the mid 70's.
I spent thirty one years, yeah, in law enforcement with Thames Valley Place.
First and foremost, I'm a qualified traffic officer involved in investigations, complex fatalities.
In fact, I'm one of the few officers that secured a murder conviction following a very tragic fatality in 1982. That sort of, catapulted my career into crime and investigations, and I then became a qualified detective, working on various sort of mainstream, frauds and criminality. I then catapulted into major crime, and led various major crime investigations into organised criminality, complex fraud, murders, etcetera.
Part of which involved, my qualifications in intelligence, qualified intelligence manager as well as a trained and qualified covert operative, but their stories for perhaps another day.
So after thirty one years, I'm I moved into the regulated sector.
And, I worked for a solicitor's regulation authority, bizarely, as the head of fraud and intelligence. And one of the things there was to collate meaningful intelligence and evidence to investigate nefarious solicitors, of many of whom I have been involved and secured convictions for fraud against.
One of the most notorious being a solicitor who was on the run for ten years. We'd run off with 10-14 million pound of indemnity money.
But I came along and within 18 months, I tracked him down. Arrested him, put him before the court and got him sent to prison.
So that was a good case for me to get involved in. I then went into the financial sector and, went to direct loan group. I was there for 10 plus years. It was head of fraud intelligence and disclosure.
Part of which was implementing a class leading tech piece of technology.
Yeah. Which is involved identifying fraud at the front end as well as supporting our case handlers on fraud investigations.
So intelligence is very close to my heart.
And then eighteen months ago,I joined Weightmans. So I've done a bit of a full circle from regulation and now in the legal sector. So Weightmans 18 months ago, as the Head of Fraud.
My qualifications, I've got a master's degree in fraud management. An international diploma in anti money laundering finance and terrorism, and various other occupational qualifications.
But I think the takeaway there for me is I did my masters in fraud management at the age of fifty. So you're never too old to learn. Wow. You know, I'll push out there.
Now I've listen, I've been successfully tackling fraud for over 48 years.
And I've witnessed its evolution from the past in the 70's.
Its involvement with technology to the present day.
And the future where, unfortunately, I see cyber and fraud becoming more joined up in the digital age.
But let's go back in time.
And in the 1970's when the mighty pen with the fordsters, tool of choice to commit insurance claims.
Then we move into the nineteen eighties, and that's when technology started to come to the fore. And for those who can remember the event of VHS video recorders.
These got a tool of choice for fraudsters, believe it or not. What they would use is stolen credit cards, bank cards, and they would run the magnetic strip of the card through the magnetic heads in your video recorders. And eventually all the personal details will come up on this screen or monitor.
So even back in the 80's, fraudsters were looking at technology.
And again, during the 80's, I was involved in one of the first successful convictions of an up and coming tech company, who were defrauding customers throughout the UK.
I was actually commended by the judge for my investigative skills, in such a complex case in 1989.
Then we move into the 1990's and computer and and and the millennium really took off and you know, our team became a real game changer for fraudsters, which exposed loopholes and organizational controls and processes.
And I think sadly in 2012, was it direct line group. We we led the investigation successfully into the UK's first cash for crash fatality, conviction. That that led to significant terms of imprisonment ten and a half years.
A sizable conviction, so I don't think it's been eclipsed to date. Mhmm. But I think what's the tragic case, what it does highlight is that fraudsters have no morals. ..
So, you know, listen, I've been I've been successfully challenging for through law enforcement and regulatory at the SRA locking up rogue solicitors and there's some interesting tells I can talk to you about at another date. As an insurer securing full convictions against fraudsters. In fact, it was up we secured if it's first conviction.
And currently is part of the legal sector helping our clients defeat fraud.
So as you can see, fraud skills are transferrable, and I've been very fortunate to have worked with so many outstanding professionals during my career, including you two guys.
Toby Morse - That's that's very kind, Mike.
Paul Holmes - Yes. Definitely. Obviously, it's talking about about me there, Toby. Thanks, Mike. Sounds like you have a a wealth of experience there for definite. 48 years. That's that's quite a bit of time. So listeners, this is the reason why we anted Mike on the show. To show you, what somebody's like when they've got a lot of experience tackling fraud.
Toby Morse - Absolutely, and and once again, Mike not because you're like Scrooge, or a malevolent ghost. So I do sincerely hope that by the end of this podcast, you still hold me and Paul in high esteem.
So my what do you think. I mean, it's a huge amount of experience that you're talking about here. What what do you think are the key lessons, from the past in in terms of dealing with fraud?
Mike Brown - Well, Toby is an interesting question. You know, collaboration for me is everything. As you both will know, it's my mantra. But I think, you know, fraudsters move at pace and so should we. It's important to be intelligent lead.
Intelligence has to be at the forefront, of the claims journey.
It will help in identifying suspect claims early And then thus ensuring genuine claims are returned to business, and and this will in turn support the honest customer journey.
Previously, I mean, insurers and investigators have worked in silos.
But, you know, industry bodies have changed this you know, working with insurers to share intelligence and actually acknowledging that fraud is an industry issue, and one that needs to be tackled as a collective.
But for all technology is advanced, as as our abilities, to play and share intelligence.
But I think importantly, you know, engagement with other insurers, either individually or via the insurance fraud bureau, the insurance fraud investigators group, law enforcement bodies, regulators, and of course, the insurance fraud enforcement department.
But, you know, this and additional closer working relationships with the department worker pensions, department of health and social security, and her majesty's revenue and customs.
They also enrich the data pool.
And data is king.
And what we must do is maximize its use. But also being mindful of our obligations, under the data protection act and the human rights act.
And important to note that, you know, police forces are starting to create specialist fraud teams where before fraud was dealt with, you know, by everyone and it's actually led to IFID, being set up in 2012. And I was part of their management board for many years.
Paul Holmes - I completely agree with that. Collaboration and being intelligence led is is something that me, and Toby are fully on board with and you're right. We need to evolve, in detecting, fraud, because fraudsters evolve. So technology and data are key. So what your thoughts about, the ghost of fraud present, and also if there was one thing that should be on our client's radar, what what and when would that be?
Mike Brown - Great question, Paul.
So many, but, let as ever, you know, there's lots going on in in in the world of fraud.
And I know that the two of you have already done a session on motor fraud trends.
And we know that there is fraud crossing over into other product lines, and other business areas. But I think the one thing for me and one I think should be on the minds of our clients is the economic crime and corporate transparency bill. Which gained Royal Ascent on the 26of October.
This is a new and creates a new corporate criminal offense failure to prevent fraud.
But unlike other corporate offenses, this applies to all employees within firms that meet the defined criteria.
It's important that organisations, and I would recommend that they review this legislation and understand the potential impacts.
But I think importantly, this new piece of legislation actual actually signals the government's priority to tackle fraud. You know, by creating a new failure to prevent fraud defense, and hold organisations to account.
You know, if they're gonna profit from fraud committed by their employees, but this this will improve for prevention and protect victims and innocent customers, while securing, you know, some existing powers and prosecution of organizations, and their employees for fraud.
The new offense will strengthen and close loopholes that have previously allowed organisations to avoid prosecution in the past. In essence, it's gonna remove that corporate veil where companies have hidden behind the corporate veil in the past. That that's no longer there.
And I think in addition to that, you've got the economic crime levy of 2023. You know, again, This is the government. It's gonna provide much needed funds to enforcement agencies to tackle fraud and money laundering.
And he said, in that further example, the governments stand against fraud.
Toby Morse - I think it's I think it's great to see government taking fraud so seriously, Mike, we know don't we that, you know, fraud makes up a huge amount of, criminal offending, and we know that it's so damaging and to, you know, individuals, businesses, and the and the wider economy, but it's absolutely fantastic to see the government taking seriously in providing the legislation to back it up. So moving on there, Mike, what about, the the ghost of fraud future what do you think of the the the things or some of the things that are on the horizon in terms of fraud?
Mike Brown - Well, another good question, Toby. You know, those that know me, I'm known as a bit of a cynic.
But, you know, let's listen. The pace at which technology is advancing.
You know, it can only aid the facilitation of fraud and insurers, you know, need to keep up with that. And that's something Weightmans to continue looking at, and particularly in a world of cyber.
You know, I I see cyber and fraud becoming more entwined if technology and digitalisation continue to evolve at its current rate. But, you know, that's said, you know, we've we've got electric vehicles on the horizon, you know, and they really spring to mind for me, you know, because the risk there is elongated credit hire opportunities, you know, due to vehicles having to be quarantined, post accident, lack of specialist repairs, lack component parts.
I think that's gonna be a big challenge for insurers.
You know, and in addition to that for you know, fraud will continue to seek new opportunities.
And we only have to look at, you know, the rising housing disrepair claims.
Yes. Yeah. We all know the claimant firms that are involved have moved from the motor arena.
In case what they see is a new lucrative, arena.
Retail and casualty fraud claims. That's another growth area. Yeah. Right. You know, we're within a broad space.
Ghost broking is not going to go away and that's again to advanced technology is an invaluable tool in the fraudsters toolbox.
You know, data theft claims, supply chain, travel. The list sadly goes on.
So unfortunately fraud is not gonna go away.
But I think the one thing to remember is technology is now the fraudsters cash machine.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
Fraudsters will continue to exploit weaknesses in organisational controls and processes.
Paul Holmes - Yeah. Thanks, Mike. That's, definitely a good answer there. I know that I have and I'm sure Toby has found that very useful. I'm sure our listeners have without a doubt as well.
Toby Morse - Yeah. Thanks, Ebenezer. I think that was it. It was a really useful trip, down memory lane, but also looking at the cresnel risks that are impacting our clients and the things that are on the horizon. Lots to think about, Mike, and lots for our clients to do to protect themselves and their innocent customers from from fraud. Yeah. And listeners thanks again for tuning in. We we hope you found this festive episode of the Morse & Holmes podcast to be useful.
As always, if you have any comments, feedback, or request for further episodes, you can reach us at Intelligence@weightmans.com. Merry Christmas and bye for now.
Mike Brown - Yes. Bah Humberg, everyone, and a merry Christmas to all.
Paul Holmes - Merry Christmas, everybody. Thank you very much. Bye.